[00:06] Torah: Hello, welcome to the Prep Me Podcast. I’m Torah and as usual Chansey is with me. And today we are talking about the non-traditional applicant. So if this is you, if you are not a pre-med drone, you don’t have a biochem background, you’re maybe older or maybe you followed your passions before thinking about this. Maybe you’re a parent, you’ve had a life before med, what about you, you ask? That’s what this prep me episode is all about. And prep 101 is our sponsor that’s going to cater to all kinds of students for their MCAT training needs from those right in the thick of undergrad or those that are right in the thick of maybe a midlife crisis. Our sponsored Prep 101 has the MCAT review course that is right for everyone. So Chansey, should you be in the middle of a midlife crisis and consider going into medicine?

[00:55] Chansey: Gosh, was that me? Was I that? I don’t know. Was I that? Maybe not. 

[01:01] Torah: Would you be considered a nontraditional applicant?

[01:04] Chansey: Maybe when I applied, I’d say yes. I say I was. But you know what? I think nowadays my version of nontraditional has changed. So maybe let me start with this. When you think of traditional Torah, like who is the traditional because you’ve taught the MCAT for many years and see many students, who is the traditional MCAT applicant? Let’s just get that figured out.

[01:24] Torah: Physiology, honors degree.

[01:25] Chansey: Okay. And when did they apply into medicine?

[01:28] Torah: Right after, like just after their degree. Straight in.

[01:31] Chansey: I think I’m with you 100%. Like you’re somebody who you knew as an undergrad, you focused your efforts on doing the health science program or physio or bio, whatever, and you’re destined to apply to medicine. That’s what I think, traditional. so non-traditional. Who do you think of?

[01:47] Torah: So in a way, like non-traditional to me always strikes me as someone who had followed a non-MD path in healthcare. And over the years, I’ve broadened that definition as well. But I always thought about people who have gone into nursing, become a paramedic, become a firefighter, those kinds of things. And then wanted to deepen their healthcare knowledge or sometimes just change their patient healthcare provider relationship. Ultrasound tech. It’s new to me in a lot of ways that a non-traditional applicant is as diverse as you can get. 

[02:26] One of my students was a former professional rodeo writer and then they were like, oh, I want to go into medicine. And there’s like Haley Wickenheiser of course, the most famous [02:37 inaudible]/doctor. So I think we’re seeing that and I think I’m recognizing that the thought of medicine and the passion for becoming a doctor doesn’t have to start at 16 years old when you’re asked what are you going to do in high school?

[02:54] Chansey: No, definitely not. And maybe you do that and you are the traditional applicant as someone who has more. You know what traditional makes me think of, is like you have a more obvious path to get to where you want, you know early in undergrad. So you’re going to seek all the things you need experience wise and your extracurriculars, focus on a great GPA, get the MCAT out early, get your applications in third year. Like we have a known framework on how to do that the traditional way. But the nontraditional is very much choosing your own adventure because there are many different ways to get back to it. 

You know what you need for the application, but how you’re going to do it is different. I remember when I was applying to medicine, because folks, I am, I would say at the time, a nontraditional applicant in the sense that I did undergrad. I thought about medicine and a lot of my friends were going the medical route and definitely more devoted than I was. But I remember writing the MCAT, thinking about medical applications, not doing so hot on many sections of the said MCAT. And then not abandoning, but certainly putting it on the back burner medicine and saying, you know what? I’ve really had a blast in bio. I really had a blast in this regeneration of poly heat worms, Torah. worms. Honors degree. 

[04:00] I was like, I’m going to go and do some more research but focus on medical that way maybe if I want to do medicine, I’ve got something that I can reference on applications. It was just sort of very vague. And then I did grad school and then after grad school, I still liked research. I stayed in that lab. I actually became the manager of the lab. And it was in that time when I was getting more and more patient exposure and talking with families and pediatrics that I guess that spark or amber lit up into more of a fire and really filled me that, oh, I need to go to medicine. 

[04:29] And this is four or five years out of undergrad. So that’s why I’d say I was a nontraditional as in like, I wasn’t going down that path like a gunner and getting everything lined up perfectly. I kind of came back to it. And there’s this forum, I remember reading when I was applying for medicine that talked about folks like me and us for those listening that are similar to me. We’re like the lane changers. We’re on the same pathway. We’re still relatively young. We did undergrad recently, but I switched lanes from research to go right back into medicine. It wasn’t a huge change. I just had to drift over. But then you have the career changers in Torah’s intro of the folks that like, these are the people that got busy with other things or had other careers that decide to essentially do what seems like a 360 back to medicine.

[05:12] Torah: And we’ve both experienced and interacted with people who, I don’t know what about your med school cohort? The ones that you went to school with? Were there ones where you like you’re what? Like that’s your background. How did you end up

Here? 

[05:27] Chansey: A hundred percent. And maybe it’s naive of me because like anything’s possible and we all know now that you can get into medicine with any major. But in my class I remember having those moments of being maybe middle to a little higher than middle and the age timeline, meeting folks that got in just out of undergrad and me thinking you just finished undergrad and you’re here. And maybe I was surprised because of the maturity. Oh, I don’t know how kind and open and communicative they were with me. And maybe I just under sold what it’s like to be a fourth year student who doesn’t know how to speak and meet people. I don’t know. 

[05:58] Maybe that was me. That’s why I thought of it. And then I met somebody who was a teacher for 10 years. Actually there were a few of them in the class, teachers or other professionals that had been outside of undergrad for 10 plus years and they were coming back to medicine. So I feel like I met the spectrum of potential that in the end, different past but all good doctors. It was really neat.

[06:18] Torah: Do you think that the nontraditional applicants because I feel like this from the students that I’ve spoken with and well the colleagues and stuff that I’ve spoken with who you turn maybe into medicine, that the feeling is that they don’t fit in. And I think that both have changed. And I think it’s also just a misunderstanding that there are a lot of really successful med students, doctors who don’t come from the traditional background. And it certainly can be done. So I think that’s the conversation I have a lot of, is like, well I, this true story, had a children’s store, a clothing store for a long time, and then had kids and then thinking about medicine, can I even do this? And my answer is unequivocally always. Yes. 

[07:03] And did you feel at any moment like, I’m too old or I’m too way from undergrad, or don’t want to go back into the world of studying and your friends that you met? Like is that as common as I think it is a sort of imposter syndrome?

[07:21] Chansey: 100%. You’re bringing up experiences and I’m getting stressed now just thinking about it. Of that doubt that came with, what am I doing? I’m young in my career, but I’ve got an established life. I now have, I’ll say a salary. I can pay my taxes, I pay my rent, I have all these bills. I have my friend circles that I hang out with. I’ve got my routines. Am I ready to throw it all up in the air for something completely new? And like you said, go back to studying vigorously in a way I’ve never, never done. That was very much like, I don’t know, is this the right thing? Is this passion? Is this epiphany fooling me? Like there’s so much of that for probably a few months before I really said, okay, yep, we’re doing this. And talked to my wife and said, we’re doing this for sure. And I think a lot of people feel like that.

[08:06] Torah: And what was your first step back onto that path into Pre-Med, whatever you call it?

[08:14] Chansey: Well, I say it, like it was like a big thing for me and it wasn’t. I identify as a lane changer, not a career changer, but as a lane changer. I was still like you, I was teaching with prep 101. I was still in that realm of medicine and specifically I was in the realm of the MCAT. So it largely made sense for me to say, you should write the MCAT again. Like you should do it. Let’s see how you do on that hurdle. Undergrad, it is what it is. I met my above average cutoffs. I was good, but I didn’t have a good MCAT score. I needed to write that test again. So that’s how I think I got back into it to be honest. It was preparing for the MCAT and then sitting down and going through some of the admissions requirements for different schools where I could see myself and say, what am I really lacking? Like what do I need to do over the next year or to develop an application? And it’s not impossible, as you said, nothing is impossible, but it was overwhelming for sure. Started with the MCAT, then got into just becoming more knowledgeable about programs.

[09:07] Torah: And I think that might be the common first step. And then you hit this massive wall, the great wall of China sits in front of you where you’re like, okay, the first step to getting onto this path to medicine is that maybe you probably already have a degree by the time you’re talking about this, right? By the time you’re listening to this, maybe you already have a degree from some completely different field. And then the first step forward is the MCAT. I need to boost my volunteer experience. Let’s go play with some kids in the pool. And now all of a sudden the thing that’s in your way and the first thing that’s in your way is the MCAT.

[09:46] And that’s where, and okay our sponsor is prep 101. I recognize that we are completely separate from them in every way. But the occasional boost on Instagram and marketing. But I will say that the non-traditional applicants are the ones that I advocate the most for taking a MCAT course. Just because they’re the furthest away from the undergrad material if they’ve ever taken it to begin with.

[10:15] Chansey: And you know what? Time is also usually not there for those applicants. They don’t have the summer off from life to study on their own. They need some kind of help and a regimented schedule. So I agree with what you’re saying.

[10:27] Torah: But I have to say, I’m biased because I do think the MCAT course is really valuable, but I’m unbiased in that take whatever MCAT course you feel that best suits you.

[10:35] Chansey: Yeah, yeah, that’s fair

[10:36] Torah: Prep 101 is pretty good.

[10:38] Chansey: No, that’s totally fair.

[10:41] Torah: Now when it comes to in medical school, do the non-traditional applicants have a harder path to success once you’re in?

[10:51] Chansey: Oh yeah. Let’s get candid because again, this is something I ask firsthand. Like I had a lot of the moments of, I’ve got dogs, a wife and I have abandoned all this stuff and I’m trying to juggle it all. And it’s tough at times. I speak to my classmate like, you have a child, you have three children. You’ve been out of medicine or out of like this level of studying for 10 plus years. How are you doing it? Like what’s the toughest spot? Like I can speak to me, but I don’t think I’m the extremist of the nontraditional, I guess. But the more extreme approach would be it takes so much planning and the need for so much support from those that were established in your life before medicine and the new roles that they need to take on to allow you to be there and to be putting in the time you need in medicine and lectures for your exams, for your clinical exposures. 

[11:35] It’s all about scheduling and organization. That’s what everyone says. It’s just, I had to be a better scheduler and maybe they came in with some level of organizational savviness, but they had to take it to the next level so they could be like we think two to three places at once or at least be a bit more regimented in where they are with their time. That was a huge thing.

[11:53] Torah: And what about the material? Because if you are a pharmacology major, a physiology major, immunology major, which is the most premed of the routes. 

[12:01] Chansey: Oh, come on. Why do you have to say that? You’re saying that because I was in immunology, is that why you said that? 

[12:05] Torah Yes, totally. And not genetics. Genetics is for the real thinker. 

[12:10] Chansey: Well for the elite.

[12:13] Torah: Yes. So with that route and then they must do better in first year med. No, because you feel like you’ve seen this before or did the non-traditional applicants just have a steeper hill at the first little bit?

[12:29] Chansey:  I think I thought the same thing too. I went into medicine and there was some stuff that maybe I didn’t study as hard for in the first month or two because it was very intro and immunology and biochem hematology areas that I knew, but I knew in different ways. It wasn’t like the raw like [12:44 inaudible] that you’re often tested on. And maybe, I don’t know, I’d be completely honest, the older non-traditional applicants might have done better than I did on those sections because they come in essentially like, I feel like I don’t know anything. It’s been too long. So I got to know everything. I’ve got to study. I’ve got to be more grueling with my study habits. And then they outcompete someone like me who has lived a career in it for four or five years and I’m like, well shoot because they studied the right things and they studied longer than I did. 

[13:07] They did the right thing for medical school and put the time in. And then I learned, I got over time. I was better after that. But they could outperform even the recent fresh undergrad who did, like you said, immunology or biochem degrees. There’s no huge default. They just know they need to put the time in to learn the material, but then they can be on the same playing field as everybody else. And playing field is meant to be, it’s collegial because medicine has changed from being the letter grade A, B, C, D or the numbers and it’s just pass fail. So that takes an element of competition out. 

[13:37] So a lot of these people will seek help from their colleagues. And I’ve sought help from some of my non-traditional applicants who come after like 10 years of nursing or 12 years of being a paramedic. Or even if you were a teacher, like teach me study habits because I haven’t studied in five years either.

[13:52] Torah: And do you think that okay, I feel like I have quite enjoyed getting older. I have to say I think that wisdom is more valuable than a wrinkleless face. But I feel like I could learn, even though I’ve been out of learning, studying for a really long time. I feel like as I got older, and I would say, if you’d ask me maybe at 28 years old, I’d be like, Yeah, I can learn this faster than I could when I was in second year. I think that there’s a maturity that comes with kind of being able to weave through and navigate all the crap you don’t need and be like, no, this is what’s going to be tested. This is how they’re going to test it. This is the important stuff and this is the not important stuff. And I think that does come with age. So I’m wondering if you saw that in an actual anecdotal kind of experience.

[14:45] Chansey: Yeah. And I think I did. And with age and experience with the ages as in like, as you say the word again aged over time, what were you doing with that? Like if you were the teacher in my class, my gosh, you know how testing and measurement, and evaluation works. You understand rubrics, you know what they’re looking for and how concise to be or how not concise to be and how to approach a multiple choice. There’s so many tasks that you’ve obtained just by being a 30-plus-year-old person coming into medicine. So you gotta own that, right? 

[15:14] Torah: I feel like I would be so bad because I feel like if I was to like go back into medicine now, I’d be evaluating the exam instead of answering it.

[15:22] Chansey: This is a really crappy way to ask that question.

[15:25] Torah: Like this is not core knowledge, this is not part of blah blah blah blah blah. Anyway, So I don’t think I’d be very good at it in many respects, as we’ve talked about many times on the show, that medicine is not for me. 

[15:36] Chansey: That’s actually a really funny point though because like we do that even still like you would be the extremist in the group, but we do that all the time is like, this doesn’t meet the objective that they asked. This question, where you read a question and it’s just like the MCAT, you’re like this is just jargon trying to confuse me. This is the real answer in the end. Forget about what I just read. It’s B.

[15:55] Torah: Do you think that the MCAT is the equalizer and that evens out the backgrounds that people are coming in with?

[16:03] Chansey: I think it certainly can. I guess the MCAT included everything else. I’m trying to think of like, and go down this hole if you see it fit with me. As a non-traditional applicant, you have benefits and you have gaps. And one of the gaps might be that yes, you’ve been forever since your undergrad or maybe you felt like your undergrad was in something that is not applicable to medicine, which we know is now not true. You can do any major you want, but maybe the grades are just subpar or maybe you need to redo an undergrad. That’s always something that happens with non-traditional applicants. Maybe you need to go back and do some university years just to get a GPA. But regarding the MCAT, yeah I think it is the chance to kind of be seen on an equal platform to anybody else who’s applying with academic potential.

[16:46] That’s the whole role of the MCAT other than to prepare you for some of the content. It’s really to see how you stand from everyone else who’s applying. So gaps, yeah, you’ve spent some time away but benefit, you live some life, you know what I mean? You’ve got so much coming into it that might make you a better steadier at the same time and do well and something like the MCAT, but like Torah said earlier, and I’m an advocate too, know when you need help and a prep course is something that would probably just make your life a little bit more easier to get through the MCAT as a non-traditional.

[17:15] Torah: Now the reality is there are schools out there that prefer a non-traditional applicant. U of C, McMaster, would we put that in the group?

[17:25] Chansey: I think you could put like, it depends on who’s on the admissions committee. I think every single medical school would say to some degree they prefer a portion of their class to be non-traditionals. I’m going to ask you first, why would you think that? Like you’ve got a doctor, you’ve interacted with the healthcare system. Like what is your first thought of that, or like, if you were in the admissions community Torah and you were selecting candidates, why would you want 50% to be non-traditional? What do you think you think you’re gaining from that?

[17:51] Torah: Humans. I think I’m gaining human doctors instead of the pre-med drones. The robots who know the material really well. I think I appreciate it as a patient, as a mother of a patient, I think I would appreciate that they come with. It’s like that, what’s that Robin Williams movie where he was like that clown?

[18:13] Chansey: Patch Adams. I aspire to be Patch Adams. That is me.

[18:20] Torah: This idea that your doctor is not just the knower of medicine but the human that understands and has experiences and I think that’s the value of things like travel, which I’ve done a lot of as a way to mature. But this idea that you can, that compassion doesn’t come in undergrad. And I think that’s what I would want. So yeah, I think that I say this a lot about U of C because it’s obviously in my backyard. I’m in Alberta, but U of C is looking more for humans and less book smart. And humans make good doctors and you can be human and book smart, but I think that that’s why they value the non-traditional applicant. Is that fair?

[19:07] Chansey: It is so well said. And I’m still so hyped that you brought up Patch Adams. I love that. And honestly, I think that’s part of the reason I thought I would be in pediatrics to be honest because I’m kind of a big kid in a goofball. I would totally throw in a clown nose, I’ll make a duck voice to anybody. 16 year old or year old.

[19:23] Torah: I think there’s actually an international clown nose day.

[19:27] Chansey: I need to know when it is and I need to get my clown nose.

[19:29] Torah: I think there might, we’re digressing, but I think there actually is international clown nose day. So maybe every day for you.

[19:37] Chansey: I think the inverse is exactly like you said. You can come into medicine right out of undergrad and you can hit the ground running. You’ve got your study habits, your mind is fresh, it’s marinating. You can really learn that material. And maybe as the non-traditional, maybe you struggle to set that up and to learn quickly. But I would find, and something that I commented on myself and some of my colleagues that were older coming into medicine, is that one thing you come in, sort of with a leg up on is communication. Being able to talk to people and to understand how to relate and know how to listen and know when to speak. 

[20:10] All these things that come with lifes of different careers and jobs and raising children and being involved in your community. Like these are things that unfortunately you can’t get that experience in undergrad. You’re busy with other things and it’s an experience that is not void to being a successful doctor. If anything, it puts you as being, I don’t know. I would say again, I use the words holistic and like you said, humanistic and well rounded, nice, compassionate doctor. Like you’ve got those skills and you learn them from being away from medicine and not applying early. So they’re fantastic. And that’s going to be selling features on an application. It’s going to be practical attributes that you will employ in med school and they’re going to be the foundation to your practice as a physician. It never goes away. It’s lovely.

[20:53] Torah: And I have to say, I mean, I would be surprised if there are listeners right now that are listening to this that are traditional applicants because thank you we must be so entertaining that you’re listening to something that you’re not probably going to be a part of. But I will say this, that if there’s anyone out there who’s going, you know, I was thinking about taking a year off after undergrad and just becoming a yoga instructor, will that hurt my applications to medicine? And the answer is absolutely not.

[21:21] Chansey: No. And we get that question so much. Like, think of all the seminars we do, like even with prep 101 or even just being asked for an email. How many people say, “Oh, I tried to write the MCAT, it didn’t go great in undergrad. I’m thinking I’m taking a year off. How bad is that going to hurt my med application? It will only help your med application. Don’t go play games in the basement for a year, but do something. 

[21:43] Torah: Play games in the basement for half the year and then the other half of your time go volunteer.

[21:47] Chansey: That’s fair. Okay, I’ll give you that. You can play games for half the year.

[21:51] Torah: I’m not a gamer, are you?

[21:54] Chansey: I don’t know. I’m partial.

[21:57] Torah: Okay. I’ve never tried it. I made a comment once in my class that I have two monitors and then the discord went nuts. Someone was like, well she must be a gamer. No one has two monitors who’s not a gamer. No, I’m not a gamer. I’m not a mad doctor. I’m just a nerdy scientist who likes to talk about med.

[22:16] Chansey: You’re not just anything. You are that, and anyone who’s listening, who’s non-traditional, you are that too. Like you have to own your trajectory and you will spin it into medicine whatever way you want to. If you’ve got the same passion that the undergrad person has. Like this is the similarity. Life is different, trajectories are different, but the passion is the same. And that’s why you’re coming back to this and that’s why you’re applying and you’ll apply in different ways. You’ll speak about different things in an essay. You will talk about different things on your extracurricular list. You’ll have many, many more jobs likely than that of the undergrad. And you will find ways to equal yourself out in terms of the points and the accumulation on an application to be a doctor.

[22:53] Torah: Do you apply to U of T?

[22:54] Chansey: Yeah, of course you do. Why not?

[22:56] Torah: Well I’m just wondering, there are schools that sort of are leaning towards, again, the human, not the undergrad, but I always knock U of T that they’re looking for robots. 

[23:08] Chansey: And you’re addressing, you’re right. I mean, they’re not going to have a 50/50 split, nontraditional to traditional. Maybe it’s 80/20 or 90/10, but 10% at U of T is still 10 to 20 people, right?

[23:19] Torah: Yeah, that’s true. So just apply where you’re strong. Apply everywhere. And listen to our other podcasts. 

[23:25] Chansey: Learn from us. 

[23:27] Torah: Yeah, one of them was all about which school is right for you. Alright. Thank you very much for listening to the Prep Me podcast. A reminder yet again, we are sponsored by Prep 101. They require us to do shout outs. No, just kidding. We also believe in their product. And subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. And it’s prep me, p r e p m e, all one word. And share, share widely. We would like to get the word out that we’re here to help and we’d love to hear from you. I’m Torah@prep101.com. Feel free to email me about the nontraditional applicant topic, was from a listener, so thank you for that. And suggest topics and suggest feedback, whatever you got. 

[24:11] Chansey: Make us better. Keep listening. Listen in your car. Listen on your bike ride. Listen on the bus. Listen, when you fall asleep. Torah’s voice will likely not put you to sleep from boredom, but she’s a storyteller. Like when you hear that voice, you want her to read stories to you.

[24:24] Torah: I know. When I read to my daughter, she’s seven, I have all the voices I get into that little mellow voice and I slowly put her to sleep. Yeah, I’ll do that to you. Maybe we’ll do a storytelling day. Alright everyone, thanks for joining and we’ll talk next time.

[24:42] Chansey: See you now.