[00:03] Torah: Hello, welcome to the Prep Me podcast. As usual, I’m one of the hosts, Torah, and I’m with the other host Chansey.

[00:09] Chansey: That’s me. I’m here. 

[00:12] Torah: He’s always here. I can’t get rid of him. We’re the host of the Prep Me podcast. This podcast is made especially for you, the Canadian pre-med student, and it’s made possible by the generous sponsorship from Prep 101. Prep 101 is Canada’s top MCAT test prep company. So take a look out for their MCAT courses coming up in the summers of your pre-med journey. Today we’re going to be talking about something that I have lots of questions about. I think Chansey has lots of questions about it, and we’re going to be asking each other stuff because it’s about reference letters.

[00:45] Chansey: I need a reference letter. I need it stat. I need it tomorrow. Are you stressed? Can you make me a reference letter?

[00:50] Torah: You’re not going to get a good one, but I’ll get it to you.

[00:53] Chansey: Oh, good point. So you need more time than just today. Okay, good thing. First lesson, fair enough. How many reference letters have you written Torah? I want to start there.

[01:03] Torah: 50 for medical school?

[01:05] Chansey: Yeah. Oh gosh. We’ll stick to medical school based on the podcast.

[01:10] Torah: Just medical school. I would say over 50.

[01:12] Chansey: Wow. That’s wild. And do you find students in general ask for letters of reference like at a particular time of year? Is it always right around application time?

[01:25] Torah: So I know that the American schools have more of rolling admission. So those reference letters will come in, kind of fit and start, starting about April. I might start to get a couple of requests for that. Then I usually, generally forget, and then I need to be reminded. But I know in late August. I know on August 15th I’m going to get a whole bunch of requests and I know the deadlines are coming. They are September 15th and October 1st for the vast majority of schools. So I have those dates marked in my calendar anyways and in my brain. So I know that’s a big deadline for me as well. So there is a bit of preparation I do.

[02:00] I mean, for the audience, I teach at the University of Alberta and I do a lot of the big first and second-year biology courses. So I would teach on average a thousand students a year. So I certainly have my fair share of students that I’m cheering for as they are on their pre-med journey and I want to support. So that’s why I end up writing quite a few a year.

[02:20] Chansey: So with that said, and this might be so silly for some, but I think it’s important to lay the foundation. In your opinion, like what is a reference letter? What’s the purpose of a reference letter?

[02:32] Torah: Well, I almost want to ask you that too. 

[02:34] Chansey: You can, we can double it. I want to hear from you first though. Like what do you think, like in terms of, you’re asked to do a reference letter for a med student, what are some things that like, because you’ve written enough of them now, like do you have a schematic or a foundation of I need to speak to these things I think, like what are those things? Like what’s in the reference letter?

[02:49] Torah: I want to speak to their integrity as a person. I think that’s the biggest one. So integrity and potential. Those are the two topics I probably try to hit on the most. As far as some students where it’s like they got a 4.0 in my class. They got an A and that’s all I know about them. That obviously doesn’t make a strong letter. But for the students that I know, I try to focus on character, their ability to communicate their maturity is a big one where there’s definitely places where students can improve and I’m like, oh. There has been one reference letter I wrote to someone about someone and I told them, look, this isn’t going to be a particularly strong letter, I’m sorry but I can’t give you a strong letter. And I said straight up like I don’t think I’m the right person for you. And they still wanted me to write it.

[03:37]  And the biggest reason that I had, and the biggest objection I had was that I didn’t feel like their maturity was up to speed in terms of what they could really achieve in medical school. So I really thought that they might be a good candidate in future years, but I couldn’t support the application that year. So I resisted writing the letter, but at the same time it completed their application and they decided they needed it even though I told them it wasn’t going to be strong. So I really feel bad about that one, but I was also doing what they asked for. 

[04:05] Chansey: And good of you to actually oblige and say like, just so you know, like there might be other stronger referees out there and I’m not going to necessarily be able to generate a strong letter or reference because I feel like sometimes people won’t say that. They’ll just write a really crappy reference. They’ll fill in whatever form is sent to them by the school and they hit submit and the student never knows really how truly strong or weak it really was. So I wish there were more people like you out there that could actually say, yes, certainly, and I’ll comment on these things versus no, it might not be a great fit, just so you know, I’ll do it, but I don’t think I’m your best referee.

[04:37] Torah: And I’ve done that a couple of times and then I’m like, well, all I can say is that you did well in my class. But other than that, and sometimes students are desperate and that’s usually more for like scholarship applications where they just need a verification more than anything. So with my med school applications, usually it’s for students that I know a lot better than that. 

[04:59] Chansey: And it’s good that you bring that up because when I think of referees for medicine, I think about truly yes the individuals, the professionals that are writing truly the reference letters for the med schools, but then all the individuals that serve as a verifier for certain activities that we might include on a medical school application, like proof that we did a certain hobby or a certain job, et cetera. But they’re very different. A verifier is someone that could be called by an admissions committee member saying, Hey, Chansey submitted an application to our school. He said he worked this job for this number of years in this role. Can you confirm that he truly did this? How did you know him in what capacity? And please just confirm the dates for me and that’s it. And then they hang up the phone, versus the reference letter that is something that is on paper that is submitted as part of the application and will contribute to a point value in and of itself in your application score. So a little different.

[05:50] Torah: But I have a question for you. Like how important are reference letters to the overall application?

[05:54] Chansey: It’s so school-dependent. There are some medical schools that don’t require a reference letter. So that goes to show you what they think of it, very little. Some schools will actually say, you know what, it’s going to be worth five points and maybe it’s not even worth any points. But it’s meant to be a screener of all the things you mentioned. Sort of intellectual, professional, sort of humane integrity as a person. Are you a good person to be coming into a medical program? And it may not have any points whatsoever on your application, but just like the Casper exam and all these particular meetings that we have in medicine now to flag candidates, it’s going to flag folks that we should be concerned about when a referee says, I don’t think this person is a good candidate for medicine. 

[06:34] They ask me to write this letter on academic strength, which I think they are superb, but I have reservations for them being my GP or being this, or being that. That stuff comes out in reference letters. So it’s a good way for us to get to know an applicant on paper before we get the opportunity if we choose so to interview them and have them speak to themselves face to face.

[06:54] Torah: So what do you want to see in a reference letter? You’ve been on admissions committees. What do you want to see?

[07:00] Chansey: It’s so tough and I will like admit that I’ve reviewed very sort of few reference letters in terms of like hundreds and hundreds. No, it’s less than that. But we’ve seen the rubrics, we know what we want to see in the letters. The main things are going to be depending on the school when you do a reference letter, if Torah’s doing one, she may be asked to do sort of two main types of references. One would be truly a letter of reference when she writes in her own dialogue, her own pen, from start to finish about you as an applicant, commenting on a relationship that maybe she has or a connection from you in a research setting or from the school or outside of the school. How does she know you? What’s your personality? Like, what’s your worth ethic, etcetera. That’s all written. It’s your one-pager, sometimes two-page reference. 

[07:42] Another way schools will look at reference letters will be, they won’t expect the referee to write anything really. They expect them to fill out a rubric that is sent to comment on particular personal attributes and characteristics that they value as part of their medical program. So it might mean that Torah as an academic reference gets a letter from me, from Chansey the applicant, from whatever school, MUN or UFT or UBC, and she gets a document that it’s sort of a PDF to fill in where she has to think about, okay, Chansey, how was his organization when you taught him in a class or had him in your lab compared to every other student you’ve ever seen in your class, in the lab? Is he in the top 15th percent of the organization? Is he in the bottom 15th? Is he somewhere in the middle? And then Torah will write that on it and go through all the attributes. So maybe organization, leadership, dependability, all these very broad things that we certainly want to see in your candidates when they come in and have a holistic sort of background that would be very suitable to a career in medicine or at least, you know, coming in as a medical student.

[08:40] Torah: But you know, some of those questionnaires, and I’ve seen lots from lots of different schools. They still ask you to tag on a reference letter at the end.

[08:48] Chansey: Some will.

[08:50] Torah: Ah, I just did it. 

[08:52] Chansey: I did all the work. 

[08:53] Torah: I’ve got more work.

[08:54] Chansey: Or they’ll do like this little like the short answer section where you’ll be able to write on a scale of what you thought of this person’s organization and then you can write a few lines as to tell me about their strengths in organization and what capacity have you appreciated their level of organization. Or like you said, please also include an appendage or appendix showing your letter reference, 500 words.

[09:16] Torah: Yeah. It’s just. And I do get asked a lot about, I will say this, I feel like I get asked a lot about compassion, communication, being able to work well with others, maturity. So those are kinds of, where, look, I’m a first and second-year bio instructor. I can’t always see those aspects of the candidates. So it does make it a little bit hard. But that’s where I would say in terms of me being able to use this podcast as an FAQ on how to ask for reference letters.

[09:50] Chansey: I want to hear all this stuff. I want to hear about the applicants that drove you crazy and what did they do to drive you crazy? And you don’t have to name anyone and don’t pull me into this because you’ve never written a letter of reference for me, so I’m out of it, but I want to know the good and the bad.

[10:05] Torah: Okay. There was one. Oh, I’ll tell you the bad. There was one student. Oh man. I had him for two classes and every class, after every single class, he’d walk up to the podium and I’d be busy with lots of other students, lots of other questions and I’d be like, Hey, X and he’d go, when you said that the fladula is an appendage that bacteria used to swim, is that what you were saying? Yep. And then the next day, when you said that DNA stands for deoxyribonucleic acid, is that what you meant? Yep. But it was just this need to ask a question to make me aware of his presence. And it was really annoying because I was like, I know that you’re going to ask me for a reference letter and you’re trying to build a relationship, but you’re doing it in a really weird way. 

[10:57] Chansey: That’s a super weird way. Whoa.

[10:59] Torah: It was a really weird way. And so there was no, it wasn’t a conversation about something that he’d read in National Geographic and wanted to chat with me about. Then, like, let’s get going, let’s talk. It was just every answer I ever gave him was a Yep. Yep, that’s what I said. Confirmed. And so then he comes to me for a reference letter and I certainly know his name and I know which courses he’s taught and I’ve had conversations sort of with him, I guess single-sided conversations. And he asked for a reference letter and I’m like, I don’t know if I can give you one. We’ve never had a real conversation. I could recognize you and say hi to you in the halls at the mall if I saw you because I certainly can put a face to the name. And here’s another thing that also drives me crazy when students don’t have profile pictures in their email address.

[11:54] Chansey: Ah, so you like the profile pictures.

[11:57] Torah: I need the profile picture because here’s the thing, there was one student who throughout the course of the semester had just fabulous questions. Really insightful, really kind, and really funny. And so we just had these email threads that I enjoyed. I was like, this guy’s so awesome. And then there’s this student in my class who would come to me after the end of the class who was also just really, had a really great way about him and asking questions and engaging and really interested. And I didn’t put two and two together. I didn’t know those were the same people. Because how would I? And so then it took him coming to see because then I got this email from someone who said, I’ve talked to you a lot in class. I’d wonder if you could write me a reference letter. And I said, sure, can you come to see me? And then he comes and sees me, I’m like, oh, you’re him, the same person. 

[12:53] Chansey: Full circle.

[12:54] Torah: Yes I’ll write you a reference letter. Yes, you’re so insightful and so smart. And I’ve enjoyed all of our conversations. So that’s one thing where, again, a really simple, really clear headshot is your email profile picture can put a face to the name. So those are really, really simple things. And then the other way to learn from the bad is don’t just talk to your prof to talk to the prof. You’re not building a relationship. Talk to your prof when you have something to say. And it’s sometimes hard to judge that. It’s really obvious to someone who’s taught a lot of first and second-year classes when students are just trolling for an eventual reference letter.

[13:36] Chansey: So how do you develop like this? You mentioned the word relationship and then we were talking about connections. How does a student that’s in a class of, I don’t know, 1600, what’s your advice for them to develop that connection that would warrant may be appropriately asking for a reference letter? What have you seen and what have you experienced?

[13:53] Torah: Come for genuine help. And this is the issue I have with reference letters and chance, you and I have talked about this before, those good students shouldn’t need help. They don’t need support. I never had a reason to talk to my profs, ever. Why would I? I went to class, I understood it, I went home, and did well. And so I get that the reference letter system, certainly through the first and second year is kind of broken that way. That if you are getting an A, you sometimes don’t need to contact them. But sometimes it is just like, if you’re interested in the material, show me you’re interested in the material. Just ask insightful questions. Engage me in a way that’s like, Hey, I heard about gene editing and I’ve been thinking about this for a while. What do you have to say about that? 

[14:40] I want to talk about that stuff. I’ll talk about it with you for hours. I’ll nerd out with you. So that’s where we start to chat. And if you genuinely want to come and ask for my advice, I’m always like I’ve got a good open door policy or open office hour policy on Zoom, where, let’s chat about what you want for your future and let me help you get you there. Because if I can believe in you, I’m going to believe in you and I am going to help. Because I have lots of resources and lots of advice to help you get there. So I do want to find those good students and it’s hard to do. But here’s the thing, and this is another little good piece of advice and learn from the good, is lots of schools have small class size research classes for second-year students onwards. Journal clubs, lab courses. 

[15:30] Chansey: Special topic course.

[15:32] Torah: Special topics. And sometimes those are coming later, but that’s okay. You’ll get the reference letters in time for your application. Take those. You sometimes have to dig through a calendar. You sometimes have to apply for special permission within your program to take them. I know at U of A we have bio 298, 398, 498, 499, and as early as the second year you’re working in a lab and you’re getting a grade for it and you’re working under a grad student. You’re working under a professor and that’s how you build the relationship. You’re not going to be in a class of 400, especially if you’re a good student who doesn’t really have to ask me any questions.

[16:05] Chansey: Could you imagine if you had 400 students acting all the same way that the good student acted, reaching out to you, wanting to grab a coffee, wanting to talk about genetics and CRISPR technology, you would not be able to do it.

[16:17] Torah: If 400 people wanted to talk to me about genetics, I would probably go for coffee with all of them. Just geeking out. Thankfully, we always have a few students that volunteer a tribute to get Fs and don’t show up like I was in first-year. I think those are kind of the things where reference letters if they come naturally because you’re putting yourself in a position to build a relationship, but don’t force it. That’s where you get the most valuable reference letters and it’s hard to do. But there are classes available and there are and you can find them. You just often have to dig there. 

[16:58] Sometimes they’re interdisciplinary studies. Sometimes they’re leadership classes. There are all these classes that I’ve taught that have under 40 students and I know everyone by name and I know all of their goals and desires and hopes for their degree. And so that’s where we really start to be able to talk about something that is real. And I think that’s where I can give a two-page reference letter talking about how wonderful Chansey is.

[17:26] Chansey: Oh, come on. And you know what, you would need a lot more than two. I’m just kidding. You could probably summarize it in a paragraph. Let’s be honest.

[17:34] Torah: He’s alright.

[17:35] Chansey: But to your point too, you said the word real and I think as somebody who’s done and reached out for reference letters and have felt like, oh gosh, who is good to ask? And a lot of that is decided for you by schools that want reference letters. They’ll tell you, like I want to see three reference letters or I want to see two reference letters and I want one of them to be an academic and I want one of them to be a professional or personal letter of reference. So then you’ve got someone like Torah, if you only know her within the academia side of things because you go for genetics coffee every Friday and have pie, she can speak to that and she can speak to your academic performance. But then maybe you’re thinking, who would my personal be? That could be somebody you worked with, worked for, an old coach, or maybe a colleague.

[18:14] Sometimes it could be somebody that could still be a teacher, but someone that you’ve like to is mentioning you’ve gotten to know at a different level because you’ve been working with them in a research capacity or some other forum that they’ve really gotten to know you other than your grade on paper. That can still be a personal letter of reference. And this is all super duper valuable. And I’m sure Torres’s written different reference letters, some that are more personal that she never thought she’d get into that depth. And some that were really, I can only focus on the academics and there’s a place for both for sure.

[18:43] Torah: And I actually now have, I’ve only said it twice for two applicants. And what I said is my gold standard of what I think should be, or which candidate I think should be getting into medicine with flying colors. I said, look, this is my gold standard. I could see this person be my doctor one day. And I knew someone who wanted to be a pediatrician and I said I would happily have this person take care of my daughter. But I only ever said it twice because I also want to make sure that I’m not writing fluff letters. I do have to preserve my integrity as well. I give strong letters and I speak to maturity, integrity and potential. But that’s the line I reserve now, only for two so far. And both of them got into medicine, I don’t think it was because of me. I think they were just also wonderful candidates and others saw the same thing. 

[19:33] Chansey: You definitely helped. But Torah told us one thing, and I need to echo this, she said, and I think it holds true too for letters I’m asked and when I was writing or asking for letters, is give your referee as much ammunition and foundation as you can to remember who you are with a profile picture, a little blurb or a copy of your CV so they know what you do outside of how they know you. And they can draw that into their reference. They can talk to it. They might not go into depth in terms of what you do when you were that lifeguard or when you worked at Tim Hortons or what your role was as a manager of the summer camp or whatever it should be. But she can still get to know you a little bit better. So she writes maybe a bit more rounded letter or if you were to meet in person, she can ask you more questions about it. So those are really good points.

[20:15] Torah: And speaking of meeting in person, I do now strongly encourage that. So there are a couple of things. There are a couple of things that are kind of, again, don’t make it awkward. This is like, don’t make it awkward with the prof. We’re humans, we’re just regular people who just are nerds. And one of the things is if I know you, you don’t have to introduce yourself with that email. It’s happened a couple of times. 

[20:40] Chansey: What do you mean? Like, hi, I’m Chansey Veinotte, you may remember me from your course bio blah blah blah. I sit in the first row, usually wearing plaid.

[20:48] Torah: Yeah, exactly. There was one student, it was a class of 15 people. I knew the student very well. We had long conversations and debates and classroom discussions and then this email came in like, Hi, my name is X you might remember me from this course. And I was like, Yeah I remember you really well. I’m not that impersonal am I? I felt really bad.

[21:15] Chansey: You were just a number to me.

[21:17] Torah: Yeah. I made that person feel like I wouldn’t remember them. So that was awkward. But the other thing is that often I will say, look, you can attach your CV and you can attach your cover letter and you can attach parts of your personal statement and all those things. To be honest, I probably won’t read them before I sit there and say instead, can we just have a meeting and that might be over Zoom or come see me, just come sit it’s 15 minutes. Hope it doesn’t last longer than 15 minutes because that means I don’t have a lot of questions for you. The minute you walk through the door, I’m like, oh yeah, face name check, check matches, and hey so what’s your deal? Why do you want to go into medicine?

[21:54] Oh, well because blah, be able to answer that question right away to that reference. Because we might have a relationship with you in genetics or in anthropology, but not when it comes to thinking about your career goals. So I know you as a student and now I want to know you as a pre-med and those are different questions. And then I’ll ask, okay, well what’s your GPA? What schools are you planning on going to? Where are you planning on applying and what kind of specialty are you looking for? I just want to know how much have you thought about medical school. Now I’m maybe a little bit of a different reference just because I am so well versed in pre-med stuff. 

[22:31] So I have maybe more focus questions than a lot of profs might. But at the same time I’m kind of getting to the heart of do I support the student going into medicine? Have they done their homework? Do they know what it takes? And are they interested in really taking this career on? But, I mean 15 minutes and that will give me plenty because I already have established a relationship with you and you better guarantee I’m searching my inbox for your name and looking at every single email thread you’ve ever sent.

[22:58] Chansey: Right. So you mentioned email and I mean just to kind of maybe wrap up with more rapid fires for you as like the referee. When does a student ask and how do they ask like, what’s your preference?

[23:10] Torah: A month before via email quickly. Hi, Dr. [23:15 name]. Rough letter. PS. Too soon. Later. No, a month before I know they’re coming. So it’s all good. A month before then just a quick like, Hi Dr. [name] or Torah, depending on how you know me. You were my prof and x and y course. I’m planning on applying to medical school if you’ve talked to me ever about it before. As you know, I’ve been thinking about medical school. It’s my application year. I’m hoping for a reference letter from you. Can you let me know your capacity at the moment to complete this reference letter by October 1st? And this is the school I’m applying to.

[23:57] Chansey: Oh, you totally got that email before, that was like, folks we don’t have a script, like that is genuine from the top of her head. She has seen that in an email. There’s no doubt, the way that flows, oh my gosh.

[24:08] Torah: Done, that’s all I need to see. I actually don’t need your personal essay in that email because I really just want to hear it from you because I also have to put a face to the name. So a month before, then maybe a week before the deadline. So as the applicants you know if someone’ submitted the reference letter or not. 

[24:27] Chansey: You do. Yeah, we’ll like to see it. We’ll be able to log into our portal and it will say you still have a reference letter from Torah or it’s been submitted. Torah’s letters in your inbox. You’re good to go. So yeah, we know.

[24:40] Torah: Yeah. So then a week before, another quick reminder and don’t say like, oh sorry, I just, ugh. I’m hoping you can still do this and I just wanted to just. Hi Dr. [name], just letting you know my deadline is in a week. I’m really looking forward to your letter and thank you so much for doing this. Done. That’s it. Reminders, no, do not even hesitate. Do not apologize about sending a reminder. They’re very valuable. Even if three hours before, if the deadlines are at midnight, send a reminder at 9:00 PM if it’s still not there. We do want to make sure that you’re getting your reference letters and we do want to make sure that they’re strong. 

[25:21] There’s just a lot of them. And honestly to me sometimes it just happens, that I know I have five reference letters to do. I forget who they’re from. I’ve counted them in my head. I’ve got five and then like searching my inbox for a reference letter, what school? Crap, medicine. Google all these search terms, trying to find that fifth so that when that email pops up. I’m like, oh, right, it’s for Jay. I write that out. So I’ll probably write 15 or so every cycle. And I just make sure that I have your name on the list. That’s all.

[25:53] Chansey: You made me think of something. Did you know that as an applicant? Say if I asked you to do a reference letter for me, I can log into my portal and I can see if you’ve submitted it. I can see if it’s not there yet. I can also choose to actually say whether or not I want to include it in my application or not. So I could ask 8 to 10 people for reference letters and I can pick the three or four that I want to be submitted with my application. So if you’re late and I’m worried because it’s an hour before I have to submit, I’m not truly out of luck because I don’t have the number of reference letters. I might just reprioritize. Did you know that?

[26:22] Torah: So you can ask for more than the reference letters that you need?

[26:25] Chansey: You certainly can. 

[26:26] Torah: Nobody’s ever told me that before.

[26:28] Chansey: You can, now they’ll only let you have like maybe not 10, maybe 5 submissions and you need to pick two or three to actually include, but I can put a checkmark as to I want this person and this person and this person. 

[26:41] Torah: So all those last minute reference letters that I’ve done, they probably didn’t even count.

[26:45] Chansey: Or you saved their bacon, one or the other.

[26:47] Torah: I feel like I like their future is in my hands if I don’t get this done and it’s not? I feel so cheated.

[26:54] Chansey: No, no, I don’t want to end this way. But it was a good moment because you made me think of that as like a stressed applicant of like, oh my God, I really want Torah’s reference, but it’s not in, is she going to sink my application because I won’t meet a requirement. I need to select this person.

[27:09] Torah: Okay, fair, fair. Okay.

[27:13] Chansey: Isn’t that wild?

[27:14] Torah: That’s wild. Oh, my mind is blown. And I will write you a reference letter Chansey.

[27:20] Chansey: Perfect. I’ll give you a month to do it. And I’ll write you that email like to the t as to all the things you want to hear from me. 

[27:27] Torah: Everyone copy down that script right now.

[27:30] Chansey: And I’ll include that. Perfect. My star photo for all my acting roles. It’s in there.

[27:36] Torah: Oh yeah, the headshot. Let me guess your chin is resting on your fist, wearing your turtleneck.

[27:44] Chansey: I’m wearing a turtleneck and I’m looking at this, like I’m surprised, like you caught me. Like, oh, hello there. 

[27:50] Torah: You got your Zoolander going.

[27:51] Chansey: Exactly. See who gets that reference? I figured you would, but I don’t know if anybody listening knows what I’m talking about.

[27:57] Torah: Let us know. Let us know if you got that reference. Find us wherever you get your podcast. We are the preppy podcast and we are here every other week just chatting about pre-med for Canadian students. So thanks again to our sponsor, Prep 101 and we’ll see you at the next episode.

[28:13] Chansey: See you now.